Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas

I am getting excited to see the results of tomorrow's balloting. I hope Hillary Clinton wins Indiana. Though I'm not convinced Hillary has IN in the bag, it certainly seems that one would rather be in her shoes in that state tonight than Obama's.

I am much more cautious about North Carolina. I think that if there were no early voting, or if Hillary had had another week, or if Jeremiah Wright's little media tour had been a few days later...well, what might have been. There is reason to be enthusiastic about the returns from North Carolina, but we'll see. It seems like Clinton has too steep a mountain to climb in too short a time. I think Obama will win by mid-to-high single digits. But- hey- I'm also an eternal pessimist and often wrong!

But, I am more interested in probabilities tonight. Here's where I see things. This is my own sort of stream of consciousness. Let me know what you think.

Results in 24 Hours

Three Possible Outcomes (and I am assuming that the Oba-media does not give Clinton extra credit for a stronger than expected showing in NC, if it materializes.):

1. Obama Wins Both - Probably the ballgame for Clinton. I won't qualify that any further, but more will be said about the process that got us here below.

2. Clinton Wins Both - I know what the delegate math says, but there would be something earthshatteringly important about Clinton winning NC. Imagine Obama had won Ohio and Pennsylvania- about the same. A Clinton win there will prove that Jeremiah Wright has further hurt Obama with white voters. If he can't win the single most favorable state left to him in the remaining contests, I assume that it won't be pretty, but Clinton will be the nominee. (Probably on a Unity ticket.)

3. A Split - status quo. Daily trickles of superdelegates as we slouch toward June. I still think that a Clinton win in Indiana is a big, big deal. Obama was ahead 15 points in March and has not weathered well. It was a dead even contest on the night of the PA primary. I remember a CNN commentator (not sure which, maybe Borger) saying "Obama really, really needs to win Indiana." Regardless, a split is not a game changer.

Michigan and Florida Revisited

Let me be clear: I started this primary a process a Clinton supporter with warm feelings for Biden, Dodd, and Edwards. Obama was never on my short list, but I would have enthusiastically voted for him, were it not for this Michigan and Florida fiasco.

If Obama is nominated, but Clinton would have won more delegates had Michigan and Florida counted, I will write in Hillary Clinton as my presidential choice in November.

My rationale is this: Most superdelegate endorsements for Obama right now are based on the fact that he is ahead in delegates. I think that the disqualification of MI / FL is the silliest thing that I have ever heard of. The rules were arbitrary to start with (usually the worst kind of rules) and were selectively applies.

A fact: Obama took his name off the ballot in Michigan. Most people know this, but still call it an illegitimate election.

A fact: Had Obama not vetoed it, there could have been re-votes in FL / MI.

A fact: Michigan and Florida are still without a voice at the convention solely because of the Obama campaign's intransigence on the issue.

A fact: Obama's proposal to just split the delegates based on the doctrine of "fairness," without even a nod or acknowledgent of the two million votes cast in those states is where he really lost me in this battle.

It is an opportunity for Clinton, however. If she stays in the race to the end, she will be able to say to the DNC that they could include the delegates from MI / FL (which would likely make her the nominee) or they can truly not seat the delegates. If she doesn't stay in until the end, the delegates will be seated, but they will be "rally round the flag" delegations for Obama.

Obama's intransigence on this question sets up an ugly scenario, for which he is responsible (if this goes on long enough): He can either lose as the result the DNC Credentials committee seating the delegates or, the DNC will have to follow through on their decision not to seat, which would be a disaster. All along, he fought solutions to the question. Checkmate by Hillary. If Hillary wins Indiana, I assume she will stay in the race to the end. Turns out Gloria Borger was right: "Obama really, really needs to win Indiana."

That we are even in this mess makes me almost unable to refer to our party as the "Democratic" party with a straight face.

I cannot, and will not, endorse with my vote a nomination won by an arbitrary disqualification of votes.

I cannot, and will not, endorse with my vote a nomination won by a candidate who actively worked to disqualify those votes.

I cannot, and will not, endorse with my vote a party that is willing to sacrifice the voices of millions of Americans in order to acheive a desired outcome.

The critical upcoming day on this question is May 31st, when the Rules and Bylaws committee will be reconsidering the Florida and Michigan question.

Electability

That old canard, right? Well, it turns out to be incredibly important. One doesn't have to climb very high on the fabled cherry tree to pick the polling narrative that demonstrates that one candidate is more likely to win than another.

PA, OH, FL are three important states in which Hillary Clinton is more competitive than Barack Obama. CO, VA, and WI are states where Obama looks better. But let's put aside too early polls for a moment. Put aside what we think we know that will happen in voting booths across the country six months from now.

I am more interested in positioning.

Let me ask an honest question, seeking honest responses: Of the three remaining candidates for President (Clinton, Obama, McCain), who do you think is seen to be ideologically in the middle?

This primary process has been very, very good for our party if in fact Clinton is the nominee. People I know who essentially spat out her name a year ago now take her seriously. She is no longer regarded solely as a radical feminist, with a predeliction toward socialism. She is viewed, in the main, as a thoughtful, tenacious, and pragmatic moderate.

I have no problem with radical feminism, or socialism for that matter. But most Americans do.

I would submit: Of the three remaining candidates for President, Hillary Clinton is the best positioned to win swing voters across the country.

She is viewed as a moderate on Iraq, unlike McCain.
She is viewed as strong on the economy, unlike McCain.
She is viewed as having the experience to do the job, unlike Obama.
She is viewed as a friend to the working class, unlike Obama.
She is articulate about tax policy and the impact that has on every day workers, unlike both McCain and Obama.

I know that a lot of people in the netroots don't like DLC-type moderates- they want purists. But, let me ask: who wins? I personally think that the unlikely nomination of McCain demands that we nominate someone from near the center.

Add into the mix that we now know that:

a> Obama can take a hit, but.......
b> it's like watching a trainwreck when he is on the defensive, and
c> the Republicans probably noticed that.

You get the picture. I think that whether we can win with Obama- now that the euphoria of February has yielded to a hard look in May- is a legitimate and extremely timely question.

The Unity Ticket

Ignoring, for a moment, the daily punditry that comes from the one-woman junta that Nancy Pelosi is emulating, I have this final thought:

My feelings about Michigan and Florida could be assuaged if there were a unity ticket. There are a lot of us who are Clinton supporters who have been watching Obama and this nomination process are are less than enamored with both. There are a lot of us who might look somewhere else for someone to vote for. Likewise, if Clinton wins, there are, I acknowledge, a lot of Obama people who will, rightly or wrongly, feel that they are being robbed of something.

I certainly have a preference about the order of the names on the unity ticket, but I think that about the only way to truly unite the party is to put both on the ticket in whatever order and move on. They clearly appeal to different constituencies- and they are all groups that we need to win. I think that this would, in whichever order, hedge our bets a bit, and probably successfully.

They don't like each other? Tough. Neither did Kennedy / Johnson. Neither did Nixon / Agnew. Neither did Reagan / Bush, initially. Neither did Clinton / Gore, at the end. But they were all grown ups who did what it took to win.

Just a few thoughts on what could happen, and what should happen. Happy Primary Day to all!



Display:


Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (none / 0)

Michigan and Florida broke the rules.  The voters knew their votes would not count, as did Hillary.  Why do you want to disenfranchise the voters who choose not to participate in a beauty contest?


by Bobby Obama on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:37:33 PM EST

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (2.00 / 1)

Three responses:

1. NH also broke the rules, but there was no penalty.

2. You have to work really hard to disenfranchise voters who chose not to vote.

3. There could have been re-votes so that everyone had a second chance, but Obama said no. We're left with what we're left with.


by arkansasdemocrat on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (none / 0)

They have their fingers in their ears, going La la la la la.


by Becky G on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We need FL for the G.E. (none / 0)

And the rules were unclear to begin with:

According to a Miami Herald poll earlier this week, 24% of Florida
Democrats say they are less likely to support the ultimate Democratic
candidate if their votes in the primary don't count.

You don't win a G.E. with but. but. the rules! Do you remember Florida in the year 2000?


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:08:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (none / 0)

Voters choose not to participate in elections on rainy days.  Barack Obama voluntarily removed his name from the ballot in Michigan in a gambit to carry favor in Iowa and New Hampshire.  Florida's primary had record levels of participation.  All of the Obama campaign's shouting about these elections being unfair are either a consequence of their own devices or laughably minor compared to what has happened in this entire process.

Certain states were punished for moving up their primaries when others were not.  The DNC went above and beyond the punishment on the books for Michigan and Florida's offenses.  In the case of Florida, the state legislature is Republican, and the bill that moved the primary included paper trails with electronic voting machines, which kept Democrat Christine Jennings out of Congress in 2006.  The issue was beyond their control.  There were maybe a few hundred Democrats involved in this decision-making process, and as a consequence, the DNC decided to strip over 2 million Democrats of their votes in our primary.

The Obama camp likes to think that "the rules" are what's important.  Protecting "the rules" of a Byzantine system that is filled with corruption and loopholes, and a campaign littered with undemocratic caucuses and allegations of fraud.  Barack Obama talks about hope and change out of the other side of his mouth talks about stripping millions of voters of their voices to ensure its candidate is the nominee.

Fortunately for those of us whose votes currently aren't counted, the rules say we can appeal this issue to the Rules and Bylaws Committee.  I believe that if the campaign lets the issue come to this, both states' delegations will be seated as they were voted, greatly to the damage of the Obama campaign.

It is very unbecoming of the Obama campaign for them to tell Democrats in FL and MI that they don't count.  The condescending attitudes of those who had their say in this process and their claims that the trails and tribulations of chest-thumping bureaucrats are more important than the votes of myself and my loved ones sour my image of the Obama campaign.

In the end on this issue, the Obama campaign has taken a position that is diametrically opposed to voting, the very foundation of our Democracy.  It is not right and the Democratic Party should not let this stand.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Independents (none / 0)

I have seen no evidence to suggest that Hillary is more likely to win Indy votes than either Obama or McCain. There is a difference between saying that Hillary is a "moderate" in the sense that she's willing to take a more "conservative" stance on business issues and the war, and saying that this translates into an ability to win over independent/new voters. I think the numbers on her perceived dishonesty will kill us if she is our nominee.  


by highgrade on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:43:02 PM EST

Very nicely done, thank you (2.00 / 0)

Your scenarios sound reasonable to me...I think HRC has made this race competitive and has seem to have found her energy again.

I am totally with you on Florida and Michigan...I will not accept a nominee who wins by excluding Florida and Michigan.

What I suspect is on May 31 there will be lots more information compelling the seating of the delegations and counting the votes.


by 4justice on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:45:18 PM EST

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (2.00 / 1)

That MI, FL stuff is getting old. It really will go nowhere and you have to know it. This country would be really on the wrong track if they start acting like a banana republic. Ain't gonna happen.


by Becky G on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:54:27 PM EST

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (2.00 / 0)

Well, you see, Becky, to a lot of us the following sounds a lot like a banana republic:

Making arbitrary rules, inconsistently applying them with the result of getting a winner in an election that you probably wouldn't have gotten had you counted all of the votes.

To me, it sounds a lot more like a banana republic than:

we're going to count all of the votes that were cast and not take away the right of people to vote because they have the wrong zip code.

It "ain't gonna happen?"

We'll see. You might very well be right. But that is not without consequences.


by arkansasdemocrat on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

clinton voted for those rules (none / 0)

Harold Ickes, Hill's right hand man, voted for the rules.

It's not like the Clinton have no influence or power.

If hill didn't like the rules, they should have objected prior to the fact, not afterwards.

Don't cry now.  It's not like Hillary is some rookie.  


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dean, Obama punted on the revotes (none / 0)

Dean really screwed up by saying the revotes could happen as long as both candidates agreed on the conditions. Brilliant. And yes, Clinton did agree to the conditions. Obama ran out the clock.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:10:38 PM EST

Re: Dean, Obama punted on the revotes (none / 0)


   Clinton tried to make stipulations that guaranteed her win. Obama is no idiot...he's not participating in a farce.

   Limiting it to only those who voted the first time (Clinton's first suggestion) would have guaranteed her a win, not to mention punished those who didn't wish to make a symbolic vote and stayed home.

   Option two, banning independents...which violates MI election statutes...also no good.

   Hillary was the one freaked out by a fair election in MI. She made it impossible for Obama to accept. He'd have been an idiot to agree to such nonsense.


by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No probably about it (none / 0)


   if Clinton doesn't win Indiana...she's in serious trouble. Especially after the couple of weeks Obama has had with that psycho reverend.

  If she can't beat Obama now...she aint electable...no two ways about it.


by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:30:58 PM EST

Re: No probably about it (none / 0)

Conversely, if Obama loses NC he's in serious trouble. There might not be any recovery for him after that point.


by jandz on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No probably about it (none / 0)


    I agree 100% with that assessment. He can't lose NC.
by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting sentiments (none / 0)

you seem to be enthusiastic about NC, but cautions to pessimistic about Ind.

Why?

Shouldn't be the other way around.

After all:

1. SUSA Polls indicate the opposite (double digits in Ind, and a loss in NC).  

2. Plus, Ind is an open primary, and Rush is calling on his listeners to vote for Hill, in order to extend the campaign.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:57:39 PM EST

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (none / 0)

For fun, I'd like to see how the MSM would spin an Obama win in IN and a Clinton win in NC.


by alamedadem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:18:12 AM EST

Re: Thoughts: Election Eve from Clinton's Arkansas (none / 0)

This post is very insightful.  I agree.  If Obama wins the nomination by not counting Fl. and Mich. his nomination is illegitimate, pure and simple.

The real "rules" stated that half of the delegates would be counted. Then to get Obama the unfair advantage, because that is the only way he could be ahead, they decided to not count any votes because they did not vote at the time the DNC wanted them to vote.

They gave wavers to New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, but refused to grant a waver to Fl.  Why?  So that Obama could claim he was ahead, but the real voters who did actually vote are telling a different story.  Those voters did vote.  Now the DNC may be able to discount the delegates, but they cannot deny that those voters did in fact vote.  They cannot remove those votes, no rule can deny that those votes took place.  Everyone knows that Clinton won in FL and Mich.  Everyone knows that Obama voluntarily removed his name from the ballot in Mich because he knew he would not win, so the voters that voted for Clinton are being denied their votes because Obama removed his name, and that discounts their votes?  How absurd and undemocratic is that?  

It is obvious that the only way Obama can claim he is winning is to discount two states.  As if that means he is a winner?  No it means that he is a prevaricator and cheat.  The "rules" the O supporters keep screaming about are not legitimate because they have not been applied in a uniform way.  They have decided in the most undemocratic of ways that they have the power to exclude two states voters because that is the only way that Obama can actually win the nomination.  Florida applied for a waver.  The denial of that waver was not justified because they granted wavers to all those other states.  It is not legitimate, and Obama is not a winner.  Claiming that these are the rules, is just a smoke screen to justify the move of the Obama campaign to exclude two states.  This is the most egregious and wrong headed and not in fact the "will of the people" at all.

For the democrats to win the White House in the fall, they need Mich and Fl.  If those votes are not counted now, then the democrats will be writing off both of those states this fall.

Obama's position is weak.  He claims that the super delegates must follow the will of the people, but he actually means the will of the party activists  in causus' like a few thousand votes in red states that he has no chance of winning in the fall, but delegates from big states like Penn actually represent many more voters per delegate.  Obama wants to follow the rules when those rules favor him, but he wants to follow the will of the people when he claims that he has won more states than Clinton.  Yeah, these states that he is touting are not states that he can win this fall.

The AA voters are threatening that if Obama is not the nominee that they will just not vote, or vote for McCain, but the real truth is that Obama has used race as some kind of justification for these threats.  The truth is that blue dog democrats are much more likely to vote for McCain than Obama, if they were inclined to vote for Obama, they would have already done so.

AA leaders have used race as a divisive device, twisting Clinton's words and claiming that Bill and Hillary are somehow racist, which I found to be the most offensive tactic.  There is a white backlash that has occurred because of this.  The numbers in Ohio, Texas, and Penn are telling the party that the resentment over these threats is causing a split in the party largely along racial lines.  These voters are showing them with their votes.  The O supporters are just in denial.  Obama cannot unite the party.  He cannot close the deal.  Threats will not work with these voters.  In fact, the feelings are becoming hardened.  Many down scale voters don't think he is qualified to be President.  They do not think he deserves the nomination just because of the color of his skin.  These voters want substance.  They want someone who is tough.  Obama seems to be a passive/aggressive kind of man.  He is condescending.  His flowery rhetoric is not what they want.  

What good will it do the AA community for Obama to get the nomination if he cannot actually win this fall?  He is winning half of the democratic votes.  When all the voters vote in the fall, half of the democratic party, even if you include new voters, will just not be enough to win the White House.

 With the hard economic times, a troubling war with terrorists, and unfair trade, loss of jobs, rising prices for fuel and food, they will be less inclined to go with a virtual unknown.  They will not vote for someone who says that America is wrong, even if America has made a mistake, they don't want a president who says America is wrong.

Movements never win elections, and anti-war candidates who want to sit down with people like Iran's leaders and who say they don't want to offend by using "heated" language, a man who hums and haws and struggles for words instead of forcefully stating America's position regarding Israel or nuclear weapons, that man cannot win the White House.  It sounds good to the far left, but it will not win that man the White House.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:57:53 AM EST


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